Along the way we brainstormed and this is what we've come up to:
1. The Bible is clearly saying on Deuteronomy, that we don't pray for the dead, this apply also to the dead.
2. What is your motive of asking prayer from the Saints or even the Living Saints?
do you want them to mediate for you between God or do you want them to intercede for you?
Can we pray to Mary or other saints as we do to God? Can some person who is at the other end of the universe hear our prayers? Isn't this something that is exclusively reserved to God? How can a saint hear hundreds or thousands of prayers at one time? No matter how great a saint they were, they are not omniscient nor can they answer our prayers (it is a known fact there are more prayers offered to Mary than to God by Catholics). This is seen by the statement by Bishop Liqouri “We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus. She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 254, 257).
Is This Biblical?
Pope John Paul II dedicated his general audience to the Virgin Mary urging all Christians to accept Mary as their mother. Using the words spoken by Jesus on the cross to Mary and to John-- “Woman, behold thy son!” and “Behold thy mother!” (John 19:26,27), and he claimed that in this statement “IT IS POSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND THE AUTHENTIC MEANING OF MARIAN WORSHIP in the ecclesial community” (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).
Even the Pope prays to Mary “Mary of the New Advent, we implore your protection on the preparations that will now begin for the next meeting [World Youth Day]. Mary, full of grace, we entrust the next World Youth Day to you. Mary, assumed into heaven, we entrust the young people of the world ... the whole world to YOU” (August 1993, Denver, Colorado, Pope John Paul II)
The next four hundred years saw many more new beliefs added to the church: The ritual kissing of the Pope's foot (709), temporal (political) power granted to the Pope (750), worship of the crucifix, images and relics (786), holy water mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest (850), the worship of St. Joseph (890), the establishment of the college of Cardinals to elect the popes (927), the baptism of bells (965), the canonization of dead saints (995), and prescribed fastings on Fridays and during lent (998)
.
Many of the teachings in the Roman Catholics are not questioned by their followers and they assume that all basic doctrines and practices date back to the teachings of Jesus and the time of the apostles. (Not just the Roman Catholics, even other Religions. Have you ever questioned your beliefs and practices of how true are your teachings?)
Bruce Shelley's book, "Church History in Plain Language", he said that Gregory is the one who made many practices in the Roman Catholics. Gregory said that after 30 days, he began to feel strong compassion for the deceased (Justus).-{Bruce Shelley, Church History in Plain Language, p.170-172, 2008.} With his compassion to the deceased, even though without strong support form the bible, he declared that prayers should be addressed to the dead saints, angels and most especially to Mary (who was wrongfully addressed as Mediator to Jesus as the Mother of God).{Anthony Pezzotta, Truth Encounter: Catholicism and the Holy Scriptures, p.232-233, 1996}.
hmmm confusing.........as for me if we pray we pray to God alone and the only mediator is Jesus and no other else...so as the Bible says that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much is true..we can ask the living saints or a true believer to pray for our prayer request and rest assured that God listens to our prayers..
ReplyDeletethat friend of mine has his own answer but i didn't post it...
ReplyDeleteare you asking prayer from them (Saints)to intercede of mediate or mediate for you?
"why not ask the saints who are in heaven right now? They are literally alive with Christ now."
ReplyDelete... that's not right, they are not "literally alive", they are still dead but are conscious and are with Christ, they will rise from death at Jesus' return (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thess 4:16), ...
so Deut 18:11 still apply , kahit naman mga OT saints were conscious and were with God, but considered technically dead (parang si Samuel). - Avielh (post ko daw e : p)
from the dead? define saints that you are referring
ReplyDeleteJesus' disciples asked Jesus how to pray.. and Jesus answered when you pray, say: Our Father...(Lk 11)
a personal prayer
in Acts, they gathered to pray with one mind.
a group prayer.
when we ask our brethren to pray for a thing, we are one in mind with them - that we, together with our brethren, rely only on God's power and will.
ahm.. in my opinion, ofcourse considering most the biblical terms like the praying together in one mind,just like the disciples prayed before the've started the meeting at the attic, and a lot of statement stated both in the OT and NT
ReplyDeletetechnically speaking about prayer, they probably love praying for others rather than praying for themselves.
to make it simple, it is very gratifying that other people praying for you than you're praying for yourself.
The best way of the Lord lifting a man was through other people.(in my own pressumption)
Asking for prayer from a friend is not bad.hehe
But don't forget to talk with the Lord as well. He really love talking to us and listening in our crazy yet meaningful stories.
*as i remember the simple talk we had with my partner in our audit team He told me, "You know what, I don't feel like telling other people or even pushing them to tell me that i am good. But instead, i want them to tell me so because that is what they'eve seen"
Thank you.! Hope it make sense.
ayos may blog na s'ya..pa-follow naman hehe
ReplyDeleteNice blog...history of special revelation..Let us share this to everyone who are seeking for a change....God Bless.
ReplyDeletefirst of all, prayer is a special privilege only the children of GOd can enjoy. we only had the right to pray, (that means coming before the throne of grace of the Most holy God), because of Jesus Christ and his sacrificial death on the cross and his priestly ministry in God's throne today. You see, God never have dealings outside of Christ. When we say dealings, we say, listening and answering prayers. Whenever we say in the name of Jesus Christ in prayers, its like saying, I had these right to pray and expect to be heard, BECAUSE OF Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeletesecondly, coming to others for prayers is like saying, God is a little incapable of hearing my prayer so I need someone to take my prayer to Him. wow, can you imagine how we limit God for that? limiting God is a sin! Psalm 78:41
"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel."
I also have blogs you might as well want to check it out. http://www.gen-domain.blogspot.com/ http://www.gen-domain2.blogspot.com/
What do you mean saints? Based on your blog, i think your referring to the true believer of Christ not on the basis of man's standard of holiness(As how Paul use it in his epistles) who are already in heaven. Hmmm... I think there is no biblical passage that may support that.
ReplyDeleteWhy would anyone pray for the saint who are already in heaven when you can pray (Priesthood of all believers applied to Christians) to God directly?
If we are referring to the praying from the saints in order to get to heaven here's what Jesus said:
John 14:6 I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
I think the saints in heaven are included from "No one"
And if we would pray for the saints, would they hear us? Would they have the power to hear all the people praying for him? I guess not.
Approaching this premise as if it's a revelation and hence new in today's world is a mistake. I stand on the view that Christianity cannot boast of being a worthwhile way of life unless it's ancient landmarks are underlined. In the OT times, people who consulted mediums and dead elements (Necromancy) were given the badge of an early demise.God commanded the Israelites to be aloof from the habitation of those who pray to the dead or spirits for help. Saul consulted a witch or medium at Endor and he faced the full rigors of the law and this spearheaded his rejection as the king of Israel( 1 Sam. 28:7-25).
ReplyDeletePraying to dead spirits was an anathema let alone praying to them for help in lieu of crying to the God of all the flesh (Yahweh). Praying to the dead was forbidden in the Hebrew Culture by God and the NT also establishes the view that "God is the God over the living and not the dead" (Matt. 22:32). With these explications in view, we will be building walls around vanity if we still engage in the habit of praying to or for the dead which is highly a sacrilege against God's essence and being and hence, His statutes and commands...
if the question is whether asking prayers from saints is biblical or not...i'm guessing it is Biblical indirectly.
ReplyDeletesaints of course have to be defined operationally. in the case of this post, i'll say saints refer to Jesus' followers, living and dead in this world.
Jesus did grant His first followers (Apostles and Disciples) the power to grant forgiveness or bind souls to earth in His name...so with this alone, i guess people can really ask prayers from the followers ask for forgiveness and such.
but of course, we don't really know if these still applies to them being dead in this world right? coz i'm not really sure if they still are bothered by the world's problems now that they're in paradise with their savior and king, Jesus, and His father, their God.
But of course you'll need to differentiate asking prayers for the saints and praying to the saints...the former i guess is ok, esp if asked to those living, the latter, well could be nothing short of blasphemous.
good topic. i mostly agree with the others who posted their comments. if i were to answer the question, i would tackle the issue by defining the word "saint" first, according to the Bible. and from there answer whether it is Biblical to pray to the saints. the quotations from the Pope and Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri makes what they believe a little clear enough.
ReplyDeletewell as for me, i didn't find any biblical support of praying to a dead saint. the bible says, that there is only one mediator, the Lord Jesus.one thing more, just like mark had said, though they are alive in heaven now, i do believe that they are not omniscient, therefore they do not have the ability to hear prayers.
ReplyDeleteand lastly, God is a personal God, i believe God wants you and me to interact with Him personally through prayers.
Jolly Rutten October 20 at 4:37pm Report
ReplyDeletehi mark
there is only one mediator, the Lord Jesus.!!
I believe in Holy Ghost timing. In God’s own time, all our prayers will be answered—one way or another—but the trouble is, we are afraid to submit our prayers to Holy Ghost scrutiny. Some of our prayers need to be purged because often our faith is misspent on requests that are not mature. We do not know how to pray, “Thy will be done.” We don’t want his will as much as those things permitted by his will.
Abraham exercised his faith to keep reminding himself he was a stranger on this earth. His blessing pact produced only a tent to dwell in, because he put all his faith in that city whose builder and maker is God.
Were some of these faith warriors not living in faith? Did God refuse to answer some of their prayers? After all, not all of them were delivered and not all lived to see answers to their payers. Not all were spared pain, suffering and even death. Some were tortured; others were torn asunder, wandering about destitute, afflicted, and tormented (Hebrews 11:36-38).
Some who had a reputation for having great faith “received not the promise” (Hebrews 11:39). Those who did “obtain promises” used their faith to work righteousness, to gain strength in times of weakness, and to put the enemy to flight.
Don’t worry about whether God is saying “Yes” or “No” to your request. Don’t be downcast when the answer is not in sight and, please, quit concentrating on faith formulas and methods. Just commit every prayer to Jesus and go about your business with confidence. He will not be one moment early or late in answering, and if the answer you seek is not forthcoming, say to your heart, “He is all I need. If I need more, he will not withhold it. He will answer in his time and in his way. And if he does not fulfill my request, he must have a perfect reason for not doing so. No matter what happens, I will always have faith in his faithfulness.”
God forgive us if we are more concerned about getting prayers answered than in learning total submission to Christ himself. We do not learn obedience by the things we obtain but by the things we suffer. Are you willing to learn by suffering a little longer with what appears to be an unanswered prayer? Will you rest in his love while patiently waiting for the promise?
Jolly Rutten October 20 at 4:37pm Report
ReplyDeletehi mark
there is only one mediator, the Lord Jesus.!!
I believe in Holy Ghost timing. In God’s own time, all our prayers will be answered—one way or another—but the trouble is, we are afraid to submit our prayers to Holy Ghost scrutiny. Some of our prayers need to be purged because often our faith is misspent on requests that are not mature. We do not know how to pray, “Thy will be done.” We don’t want his will as much as those things permitted by his will.
...
Were some of these faith warriors not living in faith? Did God refuse to answer some of their prayers? After all, not all of them were delivered and not all lived to see answers to their payers. Not all were spared pain, suffering and even death. Some were tortured; others were torn asunder, wandering about destitute, afflicted, and tormented (Hebrews 11:36-38).
Some who had a reputation for having great faith “received not the promise” (Hebrews 11:39). Those who did “obtain promises” used their faith to work righteousness, to gain strength in times of weakness, and to put the enemy to flight.
Don’t worry about whether God is saying “Yes” or “No” to your request. Don’t be downcast when the answer is not in sight and, please, quit concentrating on faith formulas and methods. Just commit every prayer to Jesus and go about your business with confidence. He will not be one moment early or late in answering, and if the answer you seek is not forthcoming, say to your heart, “He is all I need. If I need more, he will not withhold it. He will answer in his time and in his way. And if he does not fulfill my request, he must have a perfect reason for not doing so. No matter what happens, I will always have faith in his faithfulness.”
God forgive us if we are more concerned about getting prayers answered than in learning total submission to Christ himself. We do not learn obedience by the things we obtain but by the things we suffer. Are you willing to learn by suffering a little longer with what appears to be an unanswered prayer? Will you rest in his love while patiently waiting for the promise?